Thoughts on Guild Dungeons 2

2013-04-25 17:25:08 by Hyptosis

So, after trying to find a sponsor for the game, and then seeing how many bugs popped up after release, I realize that the second game was just too much for me to do. My programing skills are just lousy, and I spent 99% of my time fighting code and trying to promote the game when my skills are much better applied writing and just doing art. I'm sure I learned a few things while working on it, and to me that is most important. And a few players seem to be enjoying it even though it is tremendously flawed, and that makes me feel pretty good. The type of game that it is isn't the type to appeal to everyone anyway, it's slow. And it is meant to encourage exploration and trial and error, but the game needs a lot more spit and polish, and in the end I lost money on it and a LOT of time making it. Which is a bummer.

STILL, I'm very happy to have it done, at least it is SOMETHING. I just wish it could have been more. This late in the game I'm not sure it is salvageable at all, nor worth it for me to try to save it. There are a lot of pain in the ass variables with making and releasing flash games. Like, the viral versions on other portals won't update if I fix my game and re-upload it to my hub and here on Newgrounds. Those broken versions are still floating around. And then I uploaded several fixed versions here on NG, but no one refreshes their browsers when they come to play, so they keep trying to play the broken version that is in their history. I had a dozen play testers play the game, and none of the problems popped up for them that are now popping up. It's just tough, it's got to be perfect on luanch or it's a headache from there on out. :P Still, no regrets really.

That got wordy, well thanks for playing guys! I'm going to try building simpler games from here on, I now realize my limit. I need to just stick to what I'm good at for a bit.

Thoughts on Guild Dungeons 2


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2013-04-25 17:40:36

aww dang. Well i thought it was fun, and i im happy to have a song in the game :). Though i will say, your strongest feats are your art and writing, as well as point and click games. You know though, i have an idea for a horror point and click game, if you're interested :P PM me about it if you want. Yeah don't let it get you down though, i guess KOL is next though eh? :)

Hyptosis responds:

Yeah dude, your music did a tremendous amount for the game too. It was a miracle you sent it to me when you did, thanks. <3 I'll shoot you an email when I get time, life is very hectic right now. Unpleasantly so.


2013-04-25 18:03:11

Hey Hyptosis.
I played Guild DUngeons 2. Well, somehow playing it was a pain. It was Hours of waiting, mostly for lumber and other recources and population do build up my army. I had to build up my army several times after failing at missions, wich needed literally hours. Normally, I would say it was a moderate game.

But somehow, this game fascinated me. It was the first flash game I played for two days, spending like 2-4 hours every day on it. The last game I played with such an efford was maybe sonny 1. So, Im not sure why, but the game fascinated me. It had, and surely still has, potential. It was complex.

Out there are thousands of games, but not many that have a real complex system. Like Guild DUngeons 2. furthermore I really loved the artwork, especially Ulysses, my loyal green adminsitrator. ANd the humor gave it a great personal note.

Please dont give up. EVen if the game is not perfect, its good. And many of the games out there have a lots of bugs. Especially if they are that complex.

I want to encourage you to make other games like Guild DUngeons 2. Instead of giving up because its too complex for you, maybe you can find a nice programmer who helps you. Newground is for finding other game developers and collaborate!

Im not a game developer by myself, I have no idea how hard your work was, but I appreciate your work and it would be great if you find other creative minds and programmers and continue your series instead of making easier games. Dont give up. If you try a difficoult game and fail its still better than making just simple games that dont fascinate that much.

yours sincerely,
a big guild dungeons 2 fan

Hyptosis responds:

Thanks for the detailed feedback, it means a lot to me. And thanks for the support and kind words man.


2013-04-25 21:06:07

the game plays faster than my computer can load solitare
so it has that
it can run faster than a lump of complete garbage that i have no reason to be thankful for as all it does is enrage and waste time
mind you im not the legal age to get a job so i can't get a computer so my grandmother should go get a REAL job like i dunno somthing that pays enough to afford a laptop


2013-04-26 02:07:15

Limits in skills are meant to be broken, hell your art probably never would have gotten as good as it is today if you didn't try surpassing your limits.

Thing is, if things are too time consuming, maybe you should consider collaborating with other programmers and maybe even other artists. Sure there might be more middlemen, but you can probably find a decent balance if you seek out the right people.

Don't be too down on yourself because the programming was too complex, I bet the reason made it complicated was because you had a vision for this game, but it just didn't work out the way you saw it.

Keep learning and moving forward.

Hyptosis responds:

Yeah that is true. And I appreciate the support! I didn't mean to sound to down, I'm not down that much. The game just had such a bumpy life, and a bumpy release, and it's demoralizing. I'll probably go right back to biting off more than I can chew in no time.

I don't really like collaborating, I wish I did, but I can't stand relying on others to get their part of the job done. I hate waiting on people, I hate arguing and I hate being bossed around. And programers are taught form day one they are the boss and everyone else the employee, it just isn't fun for me to take orders all day. Too many bad experiences I guess.


2013-04-26 16:16:03

Hey there! Yeah, I'm a programmer by trade (not so much by practice these days sadly) and so I can tell Guild Dungeons 2 must have had a ton pumped into it and I appreciate it. As for quality, it's got a lot of really rough edges, but I don't care in the end. It's one of my fav games on Newgrounds. I love Guild Dungeons 1 too so when I saw the sequel I kinda jumped around a bit and then immediately clicked on it. Being familiar with the first one actually made getting through this one a lot easier. I understood how things worked, what to do/expect, so on and so forth. Your improvements over the original are massive and you should be very very proud of this. Maybe being the sole designer of a third installment is out of the question, but I'd love to see one made..... someday at least, no rush. You're on to something really awesome and it's pretty original. I think as a whole even people enjoy it, even if there are a lot of kinks to it. The biggest issue people seem to have is that they just aren't used to having to be observant in a game. It's a bit imbalanced, and sluggish at parts, but at no point is the player actually blindsighted. You tell them exactly what they need to know to make sound decisions. And people complain about it, the pace etc., but just by knowing what's up and how to play smart I was actually able to beat it in a day (now for completion!).

In short, I'm very glad you made this, I've enjoyed it profusely, do what you feel you need to do, but don't just give up when you're making things this amazing.

Hyptosis responds:

Yeah, I'm not giving up, just taking a break from complex games. It's not worth it outside of the personal gratification. Too much can go wrong. Hehe, thanks for the reply and the thoughts man.


2013-04-26 20:52:51

I don't give a damn if it is flawed, it was something YOU created. It kinda sucks, how many people always complain, yet the most of them have no idea how it is to make a flash or anything else, I for one won't certainly get to know that. I think it's good, and people who think otherwise can just go and throw themselves in a few dumpsters. There's always flaws in games, just some more in others.

I won't bore you people with anymore of my (what seems to be) mindless gabbing.

Hyptosis responds:

Hey thanks for the kind words of support man.


2013-04-26 21:40:32

I'd like to throw in my ring of support for ya, even though I just finished writing a rather harsh-sounding (I repeat: harsh-*SOUNDING*) review a few minutes ago on it.

As the game had its flaws, it still kept me in for a solid two days.

Not just a few hours one day and an hour or two the next.


If you can hold my attention for that long, despite everything I have to say *against* it, you've done an impeccable job as a programmer and I really look forward to the idea of a Guild Dungeons 3 game. I know you're really not feeling up to it days of constant management has to count for *something*.

The aforementioned review starts to sound a bit worse off near the end, admittedly, and I am sorry for that. I've really gotta stop reviewing resource management games (I don't have many reviews under my belt on this site, sure, but in general, I mean) since the genre as a whole is one of the most difficult to really say anything about since all of these sorts of games fall into the same traps and there is no "magic fix" for any of them.

Plenty of opportunities to patch up certain aspects for future endevours, yes, but there will always be inherent weaknesses that we just have to make do with as they come.

I hope I didn't contribute (at least too much, anyway; please don't hurt me!) to the overall "downer" feeling you've got because of the way this particular game turned out.

I'm confident in your abilities to take this as just another learning curve and come out ahead in the long run all the better for it.

Hyptosis responds:

Thanks for the feedback, it really helps out. And the moral support. Stay cool!


2013-04-26 21:42:18

**but two days of constant management, etc.

Darn typos. Apologies.

Hyptosis responds:

Haha, I'm the king of typos. ;_;


2013-04-26 23:00:09

Start eating more veggies and beans and fruits, with a nutritioned body and a great dedication self discipline and great mind, overcoming these programming obstacles will be a piece of cake....but don't eat the cake...if you are healthier your mind is clearer and faster...then limits will be set higher and higher til they are broken...i myself am a sorta farmer and i wanna create a game similar to yours yet not yours lol. if anything i'd like to ask what do i learn in order to make flash games on newgrounds? i know i can ask anyone, but i'd like to know your route...

Hyptosis responds:

Hehe, thanks! I just grabbed a copy of flash 8 and started reading tutorials. It's the only thing I know to do!


2013-04-27 01:19:48

really glad i could help :) im sorry to hear that though, like ii said though if you ever need anything let me know :)

Hyptosis responds:

Will do! Thanks sir! Hopefully we can collab in the future more!


2013-04-27 09:01:35

I have not analyzed it enough to see enough flaws, only one I noticed was maybe after the end of one turn my entire stockpile of iron would disappear. But regardless it was nice work for something that your skills aren't best applied to. It's something I did not pay for so it's nothing I would not really complain about. I would say that if you do want to do something impressive just take your time and ignore anyone who pushes a schedule to finish. On that note, your skills should be applied to a game or anything else that can be used best as well, although this was a fun diversion of course. Glad you have no regrets either as Newgrounds is a good place to try something new you want to make :)

Hyptosis responds:

That's a weird bug! I'll look into it! Be sure to refresh the game, I've fixed a lot of bugs already. ^_^


2013-04-28 14:36:48

Just want to say I hope you don't get too discouraged because of the problems with this game. I played the original, and was really excited when I saw this new version came out. The execution is definitely lacking, but there's still something engaging and original beneath it. There's a great game somewhere in here, but it looks like it needed more time to iron out the bugs and work on gameplay. I love the idea of leaders and sending customized armies on quests, and with some work I think that could be a really deep and engaging mechanic.

I just hope you don't permanently shackle yourself to simple games just because this one didn't work out so well.

Hyptosis responds:

Thanks, I am a little discouraged, but I'm not regretting having made it. It was fun to build an dI'm sure I learned a lot.


2013-04-29 11:34:32

Truth be told, Guild Dungeons II was not to my liking. I expected a good adventure game. I know management bright coloured games are remunerative and you deserve to be paid. Still...

Hyptosis responds:

OH well, thanks!


2013-04-29 21:49:35

Guild Dungeons 2 was a vast improvement over the first one. I would love to see another one. You are an excellent world builder and one day your skills are improving with everything you create. This is the type of game i want to play: thoughtful, engaging, unexpected. I am a big fan of what you do, please keep doing it.

Hyptosis responds:

Thanks, I feel like my skillset is more on the world building side of things, and not the mechanics of code side, for sure. Haha. Thanks!


2013-04-30 04:22:28

I like it the only real problem I had was starting out and getting res and well I'm still trying to figure out how to best balance my party, other than that I'm still having fun with it. I think you did a wonderful job on the game.

Hyptosis responds:

Hey thanks, the key to winning is really just covering melee and ranged support. I beat it in a test with nothing but conscripts, archers, rogues, and henchmen. It took a lot of them though, a lot. :P


2013-04-30 21:48:30

Greetings Hyptosis. And first off, thank you very much for actually replying when I asked about Guild Dungeons 2 back on Kongregate. It made my day... and here it is, Guild Dungeons 2.

I enjoyed the first one very much and am elated to see it with a save feature. Unlike most of your point and click games which tell a story but hardly allow me any interaction with it as 'game' over the linear 'I had to find this item and combine it with that and there was no other way'. They were done well, and charmed with their setting and theme, but to me who enjoys things with a little more sandbox'esque freedom, Guild Dungeons is and will continue to be the series I will admire most even if in terms of effort to play/fame/spread ratio Alice/Hood/Saggitarian and the likes are perhaps more convenient... and there is nothing wrong with that, but I have always been one who seeked a level of depth in games not just in terms of lore, but in actual gameplay.

As for the game itself, it was highly enjoyable! But there's always odd quirk:
-The 'Undefined' monster seems to give my men a lot of trouble every now and then, oh my!
-Sun Priests like to Cosplay as Hedge Mages in the Loadout. Must be part of their principles.
-I sometimes find a scroll which reads ''","","","","",""... What do I craft with that? The Airtouched Zilch of Nihil?
-In GD, my Boggin Rogues scale walls to spring upon the backs of my enemies and fight like Warrior Poets! In GD2 however, they keep dying when trying to climb ('clumsy fools!'). What has become of Bogginkind?
-Lack of information for enemies, I don't know how many of the stuff I face (but according to the report, my forces were always outnumbered) and how strong they are. I merely get a name and that gives me no real grasp of it... maybe I just like stats too much?
-Gnomish Agents don't have any trait that specifically designates them as ranged, which rattles me a little. They have 'sniping' which seems to be more of a skill for the beginning of combat calculations (if they work that way) rather than actually being a ranged combat feature. This makes archers seem to be the only ranger I have!
-Mushroom yields from any source seem to be painstakingly low (or I have yet to find the big one). I get scared of using my whole 3 Battlemages.

But don't let this list fool you, I have enjoyed it in ways nary another game has let me!

Hyptosis responds:

Thank you so much for the feedback, agents should be counted as ranged even if the text doesn't reflect it, but I will look into all of these issues! I appreciate the feedback man!


2013-04-30 23:07:40

Hey Hyptosis, I'd like to thank you, firstly of all, for the great games that you have made. I've been looking for a long while, meaning years, for great little gems that are hidden among the huge amount of popular games that are just a bit better than the average and get super popular just because they appeal most people but not fully like your games do. Secondly, I thank you for the sincere thoughts that you have put there. Many developers don't express themselves, well-enough or even at all, and people wait and wait for something out of them but it never comes out, and frustrate them.
It is a shame that you feel that your programming skills aren't good enough for making such a complex game. I think that that comes with time and with a lot experience. Guild Dungeons 2 is excellent because of how complex it is, how many things you have to manage without them being overly redundant and pointless. I mean, the resources you had to collect actually made sense, and you did very well in making them correlate with each other. Many games out there think that if you have a bazillion things to collect and that are needed to be used your game will then be a huge success, and they just fail horribly because it is really hard to implement a good system. And your game is real good! Easily top of the top of my favorites of all times, and that means more than 500 flash games, as well as a lot better than many "real" games out there.
I think it's a shame that you might stop making complex games for a while, but I also understand that it's very hard to code them, I do have some knowledge in that, and I can see how frustrating it is to find so many bugs after you release something to the public. But, once again, I think it is part of the making of, and experience is needed to make "bugless" games. I'd like you to know that you have a very loyal fan in this person of mine, and that you're not only good at simple games, but in games that are far more complex to be made and that many others "good" programmers out there fail just as much, or are afraid of doing so because of the monumental scale of doing it.
Keep going, and know that if you ever decide you need people to help you with, at least a few of those who played the game you think was flawed are very well willing to help you through things.
Cheers, and best wishes. I hope to see you soon with a new game.

Hyptosis responds:

Thanks so much for the support. I'm just discouraged and it took a lot out of me, I'm not giving up or anything. I'll stick to making more artsy/story type games for a few months and regain my strength. :P


2013-05-02 14:42:58

I was reading through your reviews again for Guild Dungeons 2, and a thought occurred to me.

You've got a really good thing going there. It may all say a lot of the same stuff, but they're all rather detailed, at least pointing out one potential improvement. It's a whole lot better than releasing something that everyone likes that you think could have been better and just getting a ton of "good job"s and "loved it"s. You've got a real solid advantage here. You've got reviews from all kinds of players, from casual, hardcore, patient, rushed, etc. You can add them all up, see which issues come up the most, see if the 'issue' was intended or not, and work with it. If it's intended, but generating more fuss than you'd like, you can tweak it. If the reviews suggest a feature that really no one likes at all, you could remove it or just revamp it entirely.

You're actually quite lucky to have gotten so much solid feedback, even if some is bullheaded and there are more critiques than you'd like. You're also lucky to have a playerbase that largely wants to see you improve instead of just saying how amazing you are or how much you suck. I've seen those reviews for other games and it's lame.

Anyways, always a big fan of your work, your style, and your approach. Good luck on your next endeavor and I'm exciting to check it out. Your games always stand out more than the others.


2013-05-03 00:58:37

Hi Hyptosis,

Normally I don't write reviews or anything on this site but today I make an exception for you.
The thing I wanted to say is that I absolutely loved your game. Sure, it has its flaws (like all the giant games by big companies when they are released these days) but it still was a good playable game which I enjoyed a lot!

This is the kind of game I love. I actually got to finish it which took me a lot of time but I got there and it was great!

Me writing this is just some positive feedback to you and your skills. Don't underestimate yourself. Programming can be hell but you did a good job and learned from it (probably). I am really looking forward to your next game! Please don't give up on complex games, there are so few around that actually produce these kind of games. And if you need an other tester for that game so that there are fewer bugs in the beginning I would love to help you out! Just give me a message when a new game comes out and I will help you.

Keep up the good work!



2013-12-11 19:36:51

Just got net back, and just found this game. I loved some of your other games so I decided to go through and try following all of your series' of games. Some of them I had already done, but these two I hadn't seen before. So I tried the first one, and I liked it, I just hate restarting something after I've had a certain amount of progress in it, so I started playing back and forth between the two. Playing that way, I noticed that there were A LOT of massive improvements in this one (I ended up just shutting the other one down, kind of wish I hadn't, but computers need their sleep too :P).
The first thing I noticed was the game screen fits my computer screen much better. The second thing I noticed was trade management screen was more user-friendly (on the first one I almost fell asleep a couple of times holding the button down for trades). A couple of things that were actually improvements, but sort of a pain, you have to unlock certain things by building. I say it's annoying because it is, but it's an improvement because it makes things more challenging, which is a definite plus to me.
As to issues with the game, I only really have two of them. The first is the same one I've seen repeated elsewhere, and it's not so much a programming issue as a mathematical one. The iron depletion could be fixed by higher iron mine production, or lower/slower foundry production or some combination of the two. Either way it's a 'simple' matter of finding the lines of code, and fixing formulas (yes, I know simple is absolutely NOT the word for it).
The second issue is another I've seen others mention, and not nearly as easy to fix as simple math. The production stopping when a message pops up about events is a bit problematic if you have to leave the game for more than a few seconds, especially with as often as events occur. Then again, if I have time to play a game, I'm actually usually playing the game, rather than doing other things around it, so it's not really that much of a problem for me.
Overall, I thought the first one was pretty good, this one was a massive improvement, and honestly most of what you have wouldn't have to be thrown out to fix it, I wouldn't bother with a 3rd one, just figure out where the actual problems are in the code and deal with them. There aren't really that many of them actually, just take your time. And keep up the good work. ^.^

Hyptosis responds:

Thanks for the feedback man!